Q. I am a little surprised about the title of this chapter. Isn't psychology one of the most advanced disciplines?

A. Let's first start with history. Our tradition has been dominated by Christianity for 2000 years. One of the greatest concerns to the Church was the extension of its power. At a very early time, it therefore started a "crusade" against all who claimed, that God could be found within. Why, because God-realized persons didn't need an institution like the Church.

Q. What is the connection to your topic?

A. The Spirit is the Divine Within. To a religious organization, aiming at controling people, this was very dangerous, indeed. So, the Church started to purposely remove the idea of the inherent Spirit. They simply denied, that the essence of human existence is spiritual. Instead, they started talking about the "soul" as the innermost core. From that moment on a mixing up of Spirit and soul emerged.

Q. Indeed, what is the difference?

A. The dangerous thing is, that Spirit can be Realized, e.g. people can claim their inherent Divine Nature. The "soul" on the other hand, was in the hand of God, hence it couldn't become an instrument of liberation. The confusion lasted until this very day, to such an extent, hat even science considered it as the "centre of the personality". Thus, psychology and psychotherapy were born.

Q. What is the problem about it?

A. Like in all other sciences, the human soul was separated from its context. People started studying it as an object on its own. This is called reductionism. Nobody realized, that long ago the idea of a separate "soul" had been an invention. Thus, during many decades psychology could develop as a honorable science.

Q. Until this very day.

A. Exactly. It started with a very mechanistic approach, focussing on psychological functions and behaviour, only. The first "soul-healers" were Freud and Jung.

Q. So, what eventually has come out of this development?

A. The irony is, that both famous psychologists were very critical on Christianity, however, they actually did the same the Church did: reducing human Being to a mere soul, separated from its context. This context being the Spirit and the body.

Q. Please, explain.

A. Let's talk about the theories of Jung. There are the most popular, after all. Jung repeatedly has stated, that his only interest is "the soul". He honestly admitted, that the way he proceeded was "to reduce every dimension of existence to categories of the psyche, in order to be able to study them". So the Spirit wasn't studied as the Spirit, but as an "image of the Spirit". According to Jung the Spirit Itself belonged to other disciplines, like metaphysics or theology. By doing so the reality of the Spirit was being put under the table.

Q. As you said, the same thing the Church had been doing during the ages.

A. Exactly, even about his own key concept - the Self - he was wasn't able to come up with a proper description. He only talked about "the image of the Self (archetype) in the psyche".

Q. With what consequences?

A. Obviously, very grave ones. It deprived us from becoming Whole. The "soul" or the "psyche" isn't something separate. It is embedded in the Spirit. This has huge consequences for healing and therapy. The core of my critcism is, that problems cannot be healed on the level they occur. You cannot heal the psyche with psychology.

Q. I think many people would like to elaborate on that.

A. Healing means integration of aspects into the Whole. Since the psyche - thoughts, emotions, desires - has its home in the Spirit, the former can only be healed by the latter. It is like in the body. Cells can only be integrated ("healed") in an organ, an organ can only be functioning through being embedded in the regulatory system of the body as a whole.

Q. So, the "soul" cannot be healed without the Spirit?

A. Correct. Therefore, separating them is suicidal. While thinking - like Jung - that by reducing everything into its parts, you open ways to healing, actually, the opposite happens. Can you heal a tree by cutting it into pieces?

Q. What changed people's minds?     

A. There are so many disciplines and schools nowadays. It is very difficult, nay, impossible to discover a common denominator. That's why I only can talk about my own findings.

Q. Please.

A. The first extension of the study of the personality was the theory of the unconscious. That was already quite some time ago. However, the psyche ("soul") was still an isolated phenomenon. Three influences would prove to be essential for the "liberation" of the soul: Buddhism, body-oriented therapies, transpersonal psychology and practices like inner-personal dynamics.

Q. Could you explain?

A. The coming of Buddhism to the West shook the Christian concept in its very foundation. Suddenly, there was an honorable religion claiming, that something like a "soul" didn't exist. Instead, Buddhism focussed on developing awareness - their description of the Spirit - ultimately aiming at Enlightenment, which is the equivalent of saying that you may realize the Divine within. In the West, not too long before, this would have been the gravest heresy of all.

Q. So, what according to Buddhism is the soul?

A. To an unaware person thoughts, images, desires, emotions etc. are "within", your innermost core. By become aware, awareness becomes the within. The consequence of awareness occupying your centre is, that what previously had been the "within", now appears to be the periphery. Instead of being "within", thoughts appear in front of you. They appear to be a (rather) arbitrary flow of unstructured "objects". The shock is, that no consistent entity like a "soul" could be discovered.

Q. The Christian concept thus being a false one.

A. It is dogmatism against self-experience. Eventually, since many more people seek spirituality as a living truth, the outcome seems obvious. Actually, 2000 years of misleading has come to an end. The fact, that the Spirit is your innermost core - as Meister Eckhart already stated, one of the things for which he has been condemned - while the "soul" is "just" a bundle of functions - a definition which however, requires some adjustments - is a challenge to Christianity, one that it will not be able to overcome.

Q. What would your definition of the soul be?

A. What we have seen right now is, that the "soul" - rather than being a separate entity - looses its highest position in hierarchy, once a person becomes aware. The "soul" exists not on its own, but appears to function in the context of awareness e.g. the Spirit. By  expanding the latter, it becomes your (inner) Space. The surprise is, that thoughts, images, desires etc., appear to have become the content of your expanded awareness.

Q. Having no structure at all?  

A. To answer that question, I first of all have to elaborate on the findings of body-oriented practices, as mentioned above. I am talking about schools like Sensory Awareness, Eutonie, Haptonomie, Feldenkrais and Alexander. The outcome of their experiences (including the meditation practices of Buddhism) is this. The above mentioned discovery of the Spirit is being promoted by restoring conscious contact with the body. The more you relax, while consciously watching and feeling your feet in contact with the floor, your behind in contact with the chair, your breathing etc., the easier awareness (inner observer) is going to establish itself. There appears to be an inner feedback between the two.

Q. It seems an irony to me, because both the Spirit and the body were taboo in Christianity.

A. You are a clever guy. The fact, that the body ("vehicle") is essential to developing the Spirit is a second major setback to them. Everything turns out to be (totally) different. However, the story has not ended yet.

Q. Please, continue.

A. Experience shows, that Buddhism was only right with regard to the most superficial thoughts and emotions. Only those easily pass by in your inner Space. Emotions that come from "deeper layers" prove to be more stubborn. They tend to come back again, again and again, often being so strong, that you cannot maintain observing them. The theory didn't seem to be complete. At that stage, I personally was very happy to "discover" Voice Dialogue. Developed by Hal Stone and Sidra Winkelman it is an approach, that emphasizes the inner dynamics between awareness, the reflexion (which they call the conscious ego) and the various sub-personalities.

Q. Why was this so crucial?

A. Unlike Buddhism, VD states, that in deeper layers emotions do have certain patterns. They define them as complimentary complexes (sub-personalities), related to both awareness and the ego. Insight in the dynamics gives you a holistic picture of the psyche, in which all "parts" are interrelated. In the many years that followed, I extensively tested the system. Only to conclude, that it is (still) one of the most effective therapies ever developed.

Q. Let's go back to the beginning. There you stated, that this essay would be on "A New Psychology".

A. It touches the core of psychological practice. Despite all progress in the field - as mentioned above - common psychological practice is still centered around the psyche as a separate entity. Problems belong to the "psyche". Here, the psyche only exists as an arbitrary concept. It is not related to the Spirit, nor to the body, nor are its inner dynamics understood.

Q. So, what about "problem-solving?"

A. Often, problems are not part of the psyche, but arise because of the fact, that the psyche is considered a separate entity. It is like approaching a sick tree, without considering the quality of the soil, the water supply, local, regional and climatic factors, pollution etc. The core of the problem is identification. First you accept the psyche as your "innermost being", while subsequently attributing your problems to it.

Q. So, instead of I feel fear...?

A......may have nothing to do with the "psyche" as such, but may have arisen, because your "psyche" is alienated from its context: the Spirit and the body. After having restored it, it will be mostly gone. Conclusion: your fear is the result of an "alienated psyche". Even if your fear is still there, at least you wouldn't say "I feel fear", because what you really are - awareness - cannot feel fear. Rather, you would say "there is fear in me", indicating, that it is one of your (suppressed) sub-personalities, that is feeling fear.

Q. The absence of the Spirit being the core issue?

A. This is a very intelligent remark. By being identified with our problems, the psyche or "soul" only - like both Christianity, psychology and even Goddess groups are doing - we are deprived of our core empowerment: our Spirit, our Divine Spark Within. By reclaiming it we realize our True Nature, our inner freedom.  

Q. Deep within you are not identified with the fear.

A. Right. If there appears an inner distance between you - the inner observer - and your problem, then thus you are not your problem. Again, identification proves to be the real problem. If , on the other hand, you are not identified, then you have already established an inner freedom, even if the problem would still be there.

Q. Problems will be always there....

A. Identifying yourself with your problems is a never ending story. In that case, problems will always keep you busy, e.g. dominate you. To liberate yourself, you need to free yourself  from identification. The psyche proves to be a relative thing. It is embedded in a broader context. By restoring the realms in which the psyche has its minor role, the psyche itself is put into perspective. Its character is changing dramatically.

Q. Without having done something about your problem?

A. First of all, you restore conscious contact with your body. As a consequence of that, awareness is born. You recognize it as your true Self. By doing so, the psyche transforms itself from "the center of your personality" to something secondary. It has moved from the centre to the periphery. You now can say: "I - my consious Self - is here and my my problem is there". Ergo: "I am not my problem". This is the first step.

Q. Please, continue.

A. Then it depends, how deep your problem is. If it is rather superficial, body-awareness e.g. meditation practices will let it pass by, in such a way, that sooner or later, your problem has disappeared into your inner Space. Other cases require additional therapy. The insight, that your problems are related to suppressed parts, originating from the past is crucial. At that time you weren't able - for some reason or another - to integrate them into your conscious Being.

Q. A second chance?

A. Absolutely. Self-healing consists of still integrating that particular part. In VD (or Emotional Self-Integration, ESI), there are several steps through which eventually your problem will become part of the Whole, once again. The discovery is this: once your problem is part of the Whole once again, it ceases to be a problem. The problem wasn't the problem, but the fact, that it wasn't integrated, was.

Q. Without trying to solve the problem as such?

A. During the process of consciously integrating the part - without trying to "solve the problem itself" - all kinds of emotional releases, insights and discoveries emerge. They are the "by-products", rather than the goal. Problems are solved without solving them, yes. It liberates you from the problem-solving obsession, while at the same time becoming a whole person.

Q. Indeed, A New Spiritual Psychology......

A. If you transcend the psyche - bringing it back to its proper place - then problems will be transcended with it.

Q. Wow. Thanks a lot for this interview.

A. You are welcome.       

Emotional Self-Integration
Embracing your inner step-children

"Embracing Your Self"
Hal Stone and Sidra Winkelmann